Awesome stuff again.

Thanks for being so involved with the community. Hope the game is a smash hit for you and your company.

If we wanted to submit fiction for the setting, how would we go about getting this accepted and done?

You’re most welcome. I’ve seen over the years with BattleTech the power of an active community and a community that knows I’m involved and listening.

Well, Fred, that depends. Are you looking at just doing fiction (aka Creative Commons you want to generate some fan fiction)? Or are you looking to submit fiction for publication by Catalyst, such as here on this website?

With that clarification I can better answer your questions…thanks for the interest either way!

I’m very curious to know how you simulate a d10 or a d8 with a d12. The d4 and d6 are easy, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how you make those distributions equal.

Also, don’t the punch out cards get really, REALLY fiddly? It looks like even the small ships could easily lose 5-10 locations each before going down, a large game could easily end up with me needing to match and replace 20+ punched out tokens at the end of a game, getting them all back into the exact same slots. Have you actually played with this? I’m having a hard time seeing this as anything but a “Cool idea, but not something anyone will ever use” sort of thing.

Hope you release the more advanced rules in the near future – the quick start gives a good overview, but feels like there’s little more than lining up and seeing who rolls dice better. Looking forward to the options to deepen the game.

Can’t you just buy a D12?

My game shop sells them for 60 cents.

As for punching out the markers, I was just going to laminate then use a grease pen.

The distribution is slightly off.

Green: Facings 1-3 = 1; facings 4-6 = 2; facings 7-9 = 3; facings 10-12 = 4

Blue: Facings 1-2 = 1; facings 3-4 = 2; facings 5-6 = 3; facings 7-8 = 4; facings 9-10 = 5; facings 11-12 = 6

Yellow: Facings 1 to 8 remain 1 to 8; facings 9 = 4, 10 = 7, 11 = 5, 12 = 2

Red: Facings 1 to 10 remain 1 to 10; facing 11 = 4, facting 12 = 7

Black: Standard D12

However, though it’s not identical, running the math stats that only 1 in say every 100 games sould be effected by that difference if one side used the “Leviathans D12″ and the other used polyhedrals. I think most people will be okay with that level of “off.”

I’ve not actually played with the slots, so it very well may be a little too fiddle for some players. To my mind, though, it’s no different then some of the really big boardgames, like say Descent, with hundreds of cardboard pieces you have to pull out, organize, play with and put away. If the experience of popping the pieces out is rewarding enough, then I believe most players will accept the “fiddle” on the back end.

We do try and limit the “search and replace” aspect at the end of the game, however. We’ll be providing 4 reference sheets in the box that have all the Ship Cards on it so it’s very quick and easy to glance at a reference sheet and reassemble your ship.

As for the QSR, having played it a half a dozen time and more, I can tell you there’s actually a fair amount of tactics involved. The French have to close very fast with the abysmal range on most of the weapons on the Pontbriand…but the British have to figure out how to deal with the superb speed of the French and the fact that the Pontbriand has a wicked side of weapons with a superior Crew Slot. Lots of fun tactics, even at the Lieutenant’s Manual stage.

Thanks for the great questions!

Interesting way to handle the distribution… I’d be curious what constitutes “…games should be affected by the difference”. As in the actual final outcome of the game?

On the fiddly bits: I think the problem you’re going to run into is that most (all?) of the punched bits are going to be the same size and shape, with very little to distinguish them in the reassembly phase. Most of the board games you reference use distinctive sizes and shapes for the pieces, and don’t need to end up in precise locations. With each Slot having distinct breach numbers, mixing up the locations could have a pretty big impact (and, honestly, opens the door for jerk players to cheat). And then there’s what you do whenever you inevitably lose a slot or two…

It might work out, but I think I’ll laminate them from the start.

Thanks for the info on the Lieutenant’s Manual. I’ll see if I can drag a friend over to give it a try.

The basic concept is that 1 in 100 games might be significantly effected enough by a dice roll of standard polyhedrals vs. Leviathans’ D12s to effect the out come of the game.

For the fiddly bits…ultimately, as you say, it’ll be the call of each playing group. Do they think it’s worth the extra time and energy. As an aside, one of the last big rules blocks I’m still banging on is customization…rules that do allow players to switch around slot to a limited degree, changing up their ships. Again, trying to provide as many benefits as possible that offset the fiddly bits annoyance.

. The ‘scenario’ in the Lieutenant’s Manual actually changed many, many times as I tried to ensure that it nought only taught the basics of the game, but was actually easy and fun to play several times. Can’t wait to hear your review

Thanks!

I second Toolian’s first coment.
Also will their be multiple types of torpedoes?

I second Toolian’s first coment.
Also, will their be multiple types of torpedoes?

Not in the core box set…but I’ve got several different types of aerial torpedoes penned in for release down the line.

And thanks!

I think an aerial torpedo is called a rocket. =)

J/K

I was wondering how much history are you going to draw from, into your fiction? Will the movement of nationalism play a big role in the fiction?

Pardon the double post I saw a missing comma.
Thank you very much, just wondering hom much will the boxed set cost?
is that finalized yet? Will their eventually be rules for shooting down or
bombing/shelling land targets and will land buildings be able to have an effect
on the gameplay if they are in the rules?

Thank you
E

I have done a few games with the QSR and came into some interesting situations. They all involved a larger ship ending its move TOO close to the edge of the map. Since the rules require you to move X amount of spaces before turning, the ship couldn’t move the X amount without exiting the map. This caused the ship to essentially become trapped with its rear exposed to everyone.

Do the more advance rules provide a solution for this problem? My friends and I considered the following an option: A ship may sacrifice all of its MP to change its facing to any direction without moving a space. However, all attacks against the ship treat it as having not moved.

Bob, don’t think there is a price set for the box as the plastics deal is not set, whether or not they will be pre-painted minis has yet to be determined, cost of production for booklets and maps will also increase it.

If the ships are pre-painted and does contain 8 ships I would expect it to be a bit less than AT-43′s starter box set cost of 70-80 bucks. All units are prepainted. Which contained a LOT of stuff

came with 19 plastic miniatures + terrain pieces

1x AT-43: Operation Damocles Rules Handbook in five languages
19x AT-43 plastic miniatures

9x U.N.A. Steel Troopers
1x U.N.A. Defender Snake
8x Therian Grim Golems
1x Therian Black Wraith Golgoth
1x AT-43 Game Poster
9x Terrain Pieces

2x Generators
6x Low wall sections
1x Container
6x Rackham D6 dice
1x AT-43 Tape Measure
9x AT-43 Reference Cards

And the new box set that came out a little while ago contains even more
http://www.at-43addict.com/articles/introductory-army-sets-in-june/

If they are unpainted I am guessing 50 to 75% of the cost of pre-painted? Though some people from wizards have told me it depends which factory they use, what kind of paint and whether or not the miniatures are Machine painted or hand painted. At-43 minis are Machine painted, so you get that great crisp look as if it were airbrushed and no finger prints like you see on some of the wizards of the coast minis.

As for bombing rules, Bills was asked this question about a week ago. he did say he has them in the works, but not in the initial release.

Lawwaldo,

found the same problem with that. Thought about making some type of house rule where you take random damage on the area of the ship you would be exiting off the map.

But that could also screw up future tactics for some nations where they want to pin you. Not entirely accurate with all that air up there, but does make for some fun interesting tactics.

Intersting problem, I never thought about that…

Just out of curiosity, how big will the hexes be on the boxset mapsheets? I played a game with the QSR last night, using a couple of BattleTech maps and old CityTech building counters (mounted in those plastic stands from BattleSpace). Despite the ridiculousness of looking at flying buildings, I really enjoyed it. However, it occurs to me that a miniature that takes up 3 hexes on a BattleTech mapsheet would be quite large.

While having a fleet of truly substantial ship miniatures would be an attractice sight on the table top, I wonder if, for reasons of practicality and price, the Leviathans hexes will be smaller.

Also, with regard to the map edge, I used the rolling maps rule from BattleTech’s TacOps. In order to allow for the turn, I slipped another mapsheet into place and used it to measure the turn. The ship couldn’t end its turn in any part of a half-hex, but it could move off the map in order to maneuver.

Just got the Lieutenant’s manual, very excited about this game!

ElectronJon,

From what I have heard, the Lev hexes will be 1.25″, the same as BattleTech maps. Yes, the ships will be quite large. The prototype of the HML Leviathan is 5″ in length, or 4 hexes.

Wow, a pile of excellent comments and questions just since I went to bed last night. Great to see and thanks for the enthusiasm. I’ll go person by person to answer all of your questions.

Toolian: But “aerial torpedo” sounds so much more steampunk.

As for real history, we’re actually drawing extensively. Not just for the large details, but even for the small…for example I just got in a new fiction piece from Blaine to review and it mentions an actress, Suzanne Bianchetti…who was a real person during this time period. One of the key things about making a “believable” alternate history is that you don’t go in and change everything just because you can. After you’ve created your “pivotal moment of change” (i.e. the discovery of electroid), you then try and progress the world as naturally as possible. Obviously we need the universe to be filled with surprises the community won’t expect and it needs to support a game of war…but within those confines, it needs to make sense that things change (or don’t) naturally.

Bob: No, there is no price on the box set yet. As Toolian mentioned, we’re literally in negotiations right now with numerous manufacturers on determining the final contents/costs of the box.

In the core box set and the first few releases there are no rules at all planned for dealing with ground targets. However, there are tentative plans for such rules down the line, as well as a host of other cool stuff…I’ve tried very hard to build the game knowing we’ll expand and so when we reach such expansions its less painful and more “plug and play” easy use on the players.

LAWwaldo: There are two options for handling the “about to fly off the board” situation.

First, the following rule appears in the Commander’s Manual: Two-Hexside Turn: If a ship does not spend any MPs to enter a new hex during a turn (provided it has at least 1 undamaged Engine Slot), it can always spend its entire movement to change 1 or 2 hexsides; it can never change more than 2 hexsides in this fashion.

Second, as ElectronJon points out, very similar to a rule found in Tactical Operations, the Captain’s Manual contains a rule for “rolling maps” where you simply place another map; obviously this requires another Leviathans Core Box Set, or maps with the same hexsize from another game.

ElectronJon: The hex size are exactly the same hexsize as BattleTech maps: 1.5″ corner to corner. We actually were pretty worried whether 4-hex ships on two maps like that would run into issues of not enough space, but at 4 ships on a side (what comes in the box) we found there was still plenty of room for maneuvers. Just as important we looked at smaller ships and shied away when we realized how impressive a 4-hex 1:1200 scale ship would be. Course now we have to figure out how to make all the pricing work.

Again, thanks for all the fantastic questions!

1:1200 ships? 1.5″ hexes? Jaw: dropped.

Gee, thanks, Randall. The vacuum cleaner that CGL already had attached to my wallet just went from Hoover to ShopVac. Can’t wait.

As a side note, will terrain features be noted on the Leviathans maps? I’m just wondering if “another” game with the “same hexsize” might be able to make use of these maps as well.

Thanks for the quick reply. It is nice to know that we ended up actually playing it the right way. The only question I have is that does the model count as having moved for purposes of using the Green bar or the Red bar when you shoot at it? If it is the Green bar them I think it would make it very easy for an airship to ever avoid NOT moving because they could always just turn 1 hex facing in place.

And also, YAY big ships! I’m really curious about how the elevation rules will work. I’ll wonder if I’ll have to do some converting to put the ships on radio antennas to make it more visual.

Thanks for the replies, I recently saw an old picture of a WW1 sub
and her torpedoes where all external, it looked extremely steampunkish, so much so
thats what I originally thought it was. So mabey in the far future their
could be warships with Torps mounted this way. It is a bit redundant
having them on the sides where a stray shell could detonate them
but so are the electroid tanks.So they would have a negative modifier
if they or the nearist slot gets hit. I’m dreaming now . Oh look
the men in white coats are back.
E

Randall said: Toolian: But “aerial torpedo” sounds so much more steampunk.

*** Hey Randal, hope you did not think I was being an ass. only kidding.

=)

good day to all.

LAW, subs actually had external torp tubes till the mid/late 30s

though they created a lot of problems for the crew.

FWIW, I believe the OTHER Leviathan game (Renegade Legion) used 1.5″ hexes, with 4-hex ships. It worked fine, although the transfer may be affected by relative speeds.

Out of curiosity, I’ve wondered if the name for this one took any inspiration from that one? There are enough similarities to make me wonder…

Another set of multiple answers in a single post…hopefully none minds.

ElecttronJon: If you’re feeling that CGL is turning into a suction pump to your wallet…I consider that the highest compliment as it means I’m doing the right things.

As for the maps, at the current time there are no features directly on the map that interact with the ships. Instead, clouds and mountains are tile/templates that you can use to ‘build your map’ for every scenario…not to mention if you throw wind into the equation you can then move the clouds around on the board for some real fun.

LAWwaldo: No, such a move does not count for the “green arrow” Location dice. You have to move forward and enter a new hex for that Location Dice to kick in…and you don’t when all you do is turn one or two hexes.

As for elevation, first all ships will come mounted on stands so they look like they’re flying. But for the exact rules…well…just have to wait and see on those.

Bob: Torpedoes in game play are area control/denial devices. Before the start of movement all firing of torpedoes occurs. You place a start marker in the hex of the ship where the torpedo fired from and then you count out the range in hexes anywhere within the firing arc and you place the target hex. Then all movement occurs. Then before any gun battery fire occurs, you resolve all torpedoes: if any ship is in the Line Of Sight between the firing and target hex, the torpedo will automatically attack that ship in a Breach Roll…including your own ships if you weren’t careful enough in your movement. Not so effective against small fast ships, but very effective against big ships. And the French have almost double the number of torpedoes than the British…which is good because the British have generally higher Breach Numbers…and in the core game the HML Leviathan is the only ship with 12″ guns…so the French need all the help they can get in torpedoes.

Fluff wise, the reason for this mechanic is that to create a small enough case that includes the electroid tank, an explosive device, and a generator…well…steampunk isn’t known for its microsized anything. So the torpedoes aren’t exactly that safe…so you lob it over the side after logging in coordinates and a ticking timer where it bobs, waiting…then you get well away before the timer kicks down and the torpedo spins up into action and takes off in a straight line.

Toolian: Not at all.

Buhallin: Actually it didn’t. In fact I originally was pushing “dreadnaughts” as the name specifically because of the Leviathans Renegade Legion connection. But dreadnaughts don’t yet exist in our 1910…and at the end of the day Leviathans just ‘fit’ the over-all aesthetic of the universe far better. So despite the potential connection people might make, we went that direction anyways.

Once again, great set of questions…thanks!

In your testing, how long (on average) does a 4-ship game take to play?

Thanks for providing all this feedback. I’m really excited about this game and can’t wait to do more demo’s with my friends. But damn, I thought I was being all clever when I was thinking of making mountain peeks a type of terrain but now you revealed you guys are already making terrain tiles for it. Oh well, I’ll have to try my hand at some 3d ones.

I’m also curious as to what he expected length of time for a game is or do you put time limits? Also, what is about the average size of a fleet?

As far as game time goes, The demo at GenCon took about 90 minutes including a brief explanation of the rules. Now, we only got about halfway through the fight, but we were new. The rules we used included Torpedoes, Crew, and Turreted Guns and there were 4 ships per side.

90-120 minutes is what I would expect for 4-ship fleets with the core rules.

Randall, glad you all decided on Leviathans. It has a nice ring to it.

I also fully support the current name…

The HMS Dreadnought was pretty much completely different from our trusty Leviathans… Sure, it was ‘better’, but screw efficiency, coolness is more important

I do wonder something… Is there an explanation why the stern seems generally better-armoured than the bow?

Will there be some equivalent of submarines (I somehow doubt it, but you never know, right? :3)

And what will the ship sizes be? Destroyers and Cruisers and Battleships, but will there be a type difference between a light and a heavy cruiser? Frigates? Corvettes? Stuff larger than a battleship?

Dirigibles are in the timeline… Will there be any dirigibles in the setting? If so, will there be any advantages of having a dirigible over a Leviathan?

Aaand, that’s my questions so far. I ask tough questions, I know

Kano out.

Kano,

Once you are able to put an entire battleship into the air, I would think that a dirigible would be immediately made… obsolete.

I too would like to see some sort of submarine equivalent in the future. I would imagine it to be very small (1-hex), fast, hard to hit, and armed with only torpedoes. It wouldn’t really be a submarine anymore for obvious reasons, so I guess it would simply be a torpedo boat. Instead of stealth, its advantage would be speed… lots of speed.

The Stern is the back right? Maybe it is to better protect the engines (screws). Perhaps they are more vulnerable in the air than they would be for a ship in the water as the engine room would be below the waterline.

I’m just guessing.

Yes, I too think they’d be obsolete, but in the timeline, they’re still made even though they already had big ships up there… So I thought “Hey, maybe that has a good reason.”

TonyZah: I’ve been finding 4 ships a side to be around 90 minutes. But that’s after you get to know the ships and rules…obviously it’s going to be longer the first few times you play. For the “QSR” of 2 ships on a side I’ve played several games of 30 minutes or less. Now like any game the more units you plug in and especially the more Captain’s Manual rules you plug in the longer it’s going to take.

Kanosint: Actually almost across the board it’s the Stern that is the lighest armor…it’s really the Lave that’s screwing the curve by having a fairly push Stern.

In the core box set there are rules for 4 types of ships: Type 1 = Destroyers, Type 2 = Light Cruisers, Type 3 = Armoured Cruisers, and Type 4 = Battleships. However, miniatures and Ship Cards for only the Type 1, 2 and 4 will be in the base box set. Additional miniatures released are planned beyond the box set and that’s where the Armoured Cruisers will first appear. Beyond that, I’ve got rules sketched out for how to implement Type 0 ships (patrol boats, submarines, fighter squadrons and so on), as well as Type 5 ships (true dreadnaughts, aircraft carriers and so on)…but that’s well down the line.

ElectroJoe: As mentioned above, I’ve got some concepts for how to make submarines work…but they won’t appear in the game for a little while.

Keep ‘em coming!

Oh I have a question I keep forgetting to ask. How soon do you expect to start releasing new factions? I find this to be one of the selling points my friends to be worried about since they feel they’ll get bored rather quickly with only 2.

For subs, I was think heavily armored units. 1 hex sounds right, they would be about 2 inches in length at this scale.

The heavy armor replaces the cover of the sea.

both cases would be slow, and devastating torpedo attacks.

Though, you could have nation identity with subs. Germans had very quick subs compared the British during WWI.

British equipped their subs with quite a few deck guns. May not do much against a Leviathan, but if they ever release merchant ships…

British also developed 3 new types of torps during the war. Will be interesting to see how they will include this into their fiction

one was Oxygen powered, which in water gave a warning to the target. Though with this being a game in the air, should be interesting

I would still like to see zeppelins. But maybe an advanced steam punk version of them. Maybe more sleek, quicker, and smaller.

A sports car version of the Zeppelin.

will there be a point cost for ships?

or some other formula?

I’ll go ahead and ask this question, even though I’m fairly sure of the answer, and I apologize if it has already been asked in another thread. However, I’ll lob an easy one (I hope) over the plate so you can preempt any rumors to the contrary:

Will Leviathans be a WYSIWYG game?

Obviously, using a 2-hex Destroyer miniature to stand in for a 3-hex Light Cruiser would be a bad idea. However, as long as the proxy used is the right size, will players be free to use almost anything to represent their ship?

Also, ElectroJoe, I challenge you to a name duel. Catalyst sourcebooks at 20 paces, and I call dibsies on StratOps.

I drew a swift doodle of a German unsichtbarboot (invisible boat or u-boat) for Space 1889 a few years ago:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/u-boat.jpg

The framework around the craft starts spinning and crackling with electrical energy, forming a cloaking device to bend light around the craft, hiding it from view.

LAWwaldo: This is VERY rough at this point still, but I’d like to roll out new faction box set every 6 to 9 months. So, the Leviathans Core Box Set includes the French/British, then 6 to 9 months out we’d release the German/Italian Faction Box Set, then 6 to 9 months out from there we’d release the Japanese/Russian Faction Box Set and so on. Again, please take that as a very rough desire at this point…we’ll need to get a few months closer to the actual release of the Core box Set before we can start making hard announcements of such releases.

Toolian: One of the last rules I’m working on is a point value system…so that’s the plan…but we’ll have to wait and see if it makes it at this stage.

ElectronJohn: No, it won’t be a WYSIWYG game. If you’re playing and enjoying our game and using paperclips and old baseball cards to do it…enjoy away!

And SO…yikes…that’s just cruel…my desk groans everytime I pull it out.

I am looking to submit a few short stories to be used by Catalyst for this setting, shouldve been more clear on that.

Erik,

the drawing is beautiful!

wish I had art talent.

I can make paper balls and stick figures. =(

This post is now the largest post count on MITS.com

No worries, Fred. Feel free to submit your fiction to the randall@catalystgamelabs.com address.

Thanks!

>Erik,
>
>the drawing is beautiful!

Thanks!

I certainly feel Leviathansverse technology should be up to an (unstable) cloaking device utilising great arcing tesla coils.

sounds like a pretty cool game, I have a couple of questions though

How many ships per factions can we expect?
How many factions?
Will there be any kind of mercenaries? Pirates?
Will we have scenarios in relation with ground battles (like wings of war have ground defenses shooting at your planes…)?
Will the game feature planes? I’m a big WWI aviation fan, and I’d love to see some included…

***How many ships per factions can we expect?

>Right now, we know of 4 ships for French and 4 ships for the British

***How many factions?
> As mentioned that initial release will have 2 (France and England) then every 6 – 9 months (planned not official) they will release a new faction.

***Will there be any kind of mercenaries? Pirates?

> Don’t know about this. Don’t know if I like the idea. Kind of divorces the idea of WWI combat of the time and history with too much “fiction” Remember most pirate ships were stolen. Steeling a multimillion dollar ship is not something easy to do as crews were constantly on board and ships were protected. Not to mention ships of this generation took many men to operate as appose to 16th and 17th century you could manage a ship with 10 men.

The best idea of having a “pirate” faction would be a communist faction, with some of the Reds that did take over ships, some at sea. Could make for some interesting fiction.

***Will we have scenarios in relation with ground battles (like wings of war have ground defenses shooting at your planes…)?

> The ideas are still in the works according to Bills. Not in the initial release though. One step at a time. I guess.

***Will the game feature planes? I’m a big WWI aviation fan, and I’d love to see some included…

> Eventually. Though not in the initial release. It has been estimated a 1 or 2 after release. Though keep in mind, Bills has stated these are just estimations. Nothing final.

Best to get the foundation of the feel of WWI naval combat (Steel Castles) and not the feel of WWII naval combat. Air power.

By the way I am a big fan of Wings of war as well as Canvas Eagles. =)

damn the lack of an edit button!

damn!

Great work so far! I really like what I’ve been reading regarding this game. I have no estimation on how pre-paint costs will affect your bottom line, but I’ve always preferred pre-paint to unpainted. My first goal when buying a game is playing it out of the box. I’ll always make exceptions but with the size of these ships reaching 5″, I think these badboys are going to need to have some paint on them. Hopefully I won’t be behind the brush

All I could think about when Randall mentioned Type 0 “Squadrons” was “Launch fighters! Launch fighters!” (Star Control)

Awww, a year to year and half estimated before the Ruskies arrive? That’s a long time ^^; Ah werll, I’ll hafta play Brits until then :3

Well Kanosint, I’m sure the Brits’ll give you more than your money’s worth. It’s so exciting to see all of the fan comments and interest here, that’s for sure. 6-9 Mo, huh? Then hopefully each convention season can see new unit types! I like your thinking..hah

Toolian, thanks for the answers to Frog’s questions…right across the board. To clarify, yes there will be pirates. In fact I just approved an outline for a pirate-centered, British POV novella…so lots of fun there!

And Erik, very cool illustration…all sorts of fun potential with that. Remember that Leviathans is released under CC, so we absolutely encourage such artwork and rules generations by the our growing community. Thanks for sharing!

TMP is talking about Leviathans.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=185188

***How many ships per factions can we expect?

>Right now, we know of 4 ships for French and 4 ships for the British

***How many factions?
> As mentioned that initial release will have 2 (France and England) then every 6 – 9 months (planned not official) they will release a new faction.

I know, I know, I read the comments, but I was wondering if they were planning to release 20, or 30 ships per faction, or if it’s not decided yet. Same for the factions, I know French, Brits, Germans, Russkovs, Japs… but is there already a specified number or factions, or would keep adding new factions as it comes…

I think a total number is up in the air.

Ultimately it will be bases on how well the game sells.

The game is based on some “historic” designs and there were hundred and hundreds of classes across the globe.

Not to mention they can/will (don’t really know) include new designed ships.

Right now release date should be on top of the list. =)

can you make it come out tomorrow?

please.

For the submarine, i will propose an underground drilled ship: invisible, slow and must be visible to fire at ennemies and so steampunk….

Olliande,

I think the idea of a submarine in this game is kind of … moot. This game takes place in the air and there is really nothing for a ‘submarine’ to be under. Sure, it could be underground, but the ships could be fighting thousands of feet in the air. What could it do from the ground that any number of other vehicles could do better?

I would think that if technology could get ships into the air, some of the things that make a submarine a submarine are not necessary. It doesn’t need to withstand great pressures from being under water, so it can have windows and such like a normal ship. It doesn’t need to move through water, so the shape of the hull can be much different. It could adopt a any number of new and unique design to fulfill its roll, whatever it would be.

I would expect a type of a small fast-attack torpedo ship. Mostly made of Electroid containers, an engine, torpedoes and a few guy to man the thing.

With Lev technology, anything around this time that would be invented for ‘naval’ combat would probably look a great deal different than what we are familiar with historically.

Your friendly neighborhood bare plastic lover is back…I remember a previous quote regarding the cost of prepainted versus bare…Is there any. (this may have been answered, but I can’t find it. My idiot-fu is better than my search-fu)
Also, if the question is still in debate, my I repeat my request for non-painted units? Other from my gaming group and myself feel that this is one of the main differences between minis games and board games. If they are pre-painted, I’ll probably just buy the rulebooks and mount some “pirates” ccgs on a cbt flight stand….Though I’d prefer the official minis. Thanks for putting up with my redundancy!

I was going to mount Axis and Allies War at Sea ships on litko stands if the minis were un-painted.

:p

great minds think alike. sort of.

I would rather get pre-painted Minis as I don’t have the skill or the time to paint minis that big anymore. The pre-painted ones would be great for me

I personally hope for pre-painted minis so long as the quality is good. If that is the case it would be a lot easier to get my friends to play because it wouldn’t be another stack of models that they would have to paint (we have enough already from other games).

I hear what you are saying Aeneades (is that some greek mythological hero?) Use to paint a bit in high school. Then I went to college. BLAM! too much work, it sucks Reason I only hope for prepainted is that I would only be able to paint during summer and winter breaks.

A lot of people are questioning quality of pre-paint miniatures. CMG such as Mechwarrior, hero clix, War at Sea have F to C+ quality. But are good enough to serve their purpose.

Take a look at AT-43 and especially confrontation probably the best pre paints for miniatures games out there.

Not as great as some of the artists out there. But not everyone has that talent, time or money to pay them.

For the quality of AT-43 and Confrontation the time vs money and number of miniatures you can get, you can’t go wrong.

I would also like to add Tannhuaser miniatures are not to shabby wither. Basic, no real highlights, but they are nice and last.

That said,

if they do decide to pick the pre paint route, I am positive with all the time an energy they put into this game that it will be top notch.

ideally the fans would like to have it both ways, but I am not sure if that would be what the buisness men would call “cost effective”

My only worry with pre paint is that you may have a bad paint job like some of wings of war minis where 2 of my planes came with chipped paint, and the decals were falling off. It seemed as though the minis did not get through the dull coat stage. :s

From what I gathered till now, and that’s just wild guesses, we could have eight factions :

England, France, Germany, Italy for sure. Russia and Japan and USA are really likely. And more a hope than anything, it would be cool to have Austria-Hungary…

After that, perhaps Turkey & Spain to complete the list? I don’t se anyone else with the power base to make such complicated and expensive machines as the Leviathans.

Do you think I would be using an Austro-Hungarian rank if they weren’t involved? And there’s a full roster of minor air powers, on more than one continent. At least, they exist in the universe; appearance as minis would probably have some relationship to how successful we are

Pre-painted minis would make introduction in the game much better and easier. I tried 40k, but with all the time consuming painting I finally decided to get out of it.

Better to have them pre-painted. It will sell the product to just about everybody. A modeler can always re-paint…and will. Just go over to the War at Sea forums (official and Forumini sites) and peek at their modding section. The WWII ships come pre-painted and sell like crazy. That appeals to core gamers and yet modders chop ‘em and re-paint ‘em all the time.

Unfortunately, people who wants unpainted have the time to post and appears to have the loudest voice in the forum eventhough they are indeed the minority and probably do not have that many years of painting experience. Of course, there are always exceptions. I have been painting minis for 20 years. I still strongly favors pre-painted models for this game.

I do agree with wildger here, even if I love painting minis, i still prefer pre painted models. Maybe I’ll get to repaint them later, but I’d like to be able to open the box, and play right away.

Wildger, you really don’t get it do you…

Yes, I am really psyched about the game. No, I have not had success in repainting, but painting is part of this hobby to me. I am hoping my opinion counts. Yes, I’m a repeat poster, but for every one of my posts there are a handful of you, so I’m trying to keep unpainted as represented when the topic comes up. I was also trying to clarify the point and determine whether or not prepainted would be more expensive. I also try to do it with respect. Then you show up
No, I do not paint near as much I want to, but it is still important to me. By choosing prepainted, the point has been made for having someone else do it, and likely paying more for it (commission). Also, I don’t see why not painted = not playable. Use Plastic minis. I don’t care.
Stop slamming me for voicing my opinion, especially when you ‘have the time to post [against me]‘ !!!!
The Konteradmiral appears to have ignore the question so it is repectively (to him and the rest of the company) hereby dropped, can you say the same??????

@Leo, @Wildger – let’s keep it friendly, thanks? Not everyone’s ever going to agree on anything in this world, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

All of us – those involved in the making of the game, and those of you who want to share playing it – want the best possible game. Inevitably, we can’t make everyone 100% happy. But please be assured that all of us at Catalyst understand both sides.

I’m a long-term Battletech player, and kitbasher. I love making my own designs out of bits of other ‘Mechs, even house-hold stuff. I also enjoy customising the stock Battletech minis. I do find painting a bit of a chore, oddly enough, but I understand the appeal of a well-painted mini you’ve done yourself. I also liked a lot of the pre-painted MechWarrior minis, particularly those from the earlier series – while pre-painted, some like the Banson’s Raiders and Dragon’s Fury were very well done, and look good – they had wash, detailing and weathering, even. There’s a Banson’s Raiders Arbalest that I keep just because I think it looks gorgeous, even though I never played that game. Also, the pre-paints of the earlier sets were well done enough that you could paint over the top with no need to strip, and no loss of detail.

Now I agree that as time went on, the quality of the pre-paint jobs dropped – by the time of the Solaris sets I really didn’t like the look or the quality of the paintjobs. But it’s an indication that a middle ground can be possible. And one thing I’ve found about Catalyst Game Labs while working with them on this – they won’t do something unless they can do it high quality.

I can’t make any commitments about what we’ll end up doing – that’s Randall’s job. And believe me, lots of sweat and blood is going into this topic. But we hear both sides – heck, we include people from both sides of the argument, plus wierdos like me who wants to sit on both sides of the fence No-one’s going to be ignored, and no decisions are going to be made lightly.

In the meantime, save the enthusiasm and competitiveness for the skies over 1910 Europe. Download the Lieutenant’s Manual, and have a proxy grudge match between the forces of Prepaintia, and Bareplastica – let us know how it turns out!

Thank you for the quick response Konteradmiral. I meant no disrespect towards you, the game or company, and I completely understand where you are coming from. I appreciate CGL and all their games. Thank you for keeping CBT going.
I just do not appreciate receiving backhanded remarks that are demeaning. I’ve felt personally attacked (by one individual) each time I’ve posted on the subject. I’m just trying to keep the dialog going. I apologize for my last comment, but truly felt it needed to be said. I also understand that either prepainted or not- the correct choice will have been made (just not necessarily the popular one).

Now, prepainted or not, when do we get to see some casted minis? or when will new pdf ship cards be out? When will we see the HMS dreadnought?….

“Also, I don’t see why not painted = not playable. Use Plastic minis. I don’t care.”

While this may be the case for you, Leo, many other paint-obsessed gamers don’t agree. I think the overall trend has been to put less emphasis on painting, but there are still plenty of people out there who will refuse to play you if something isn’t painted. The choice to go prepainted or not pushes the game towards a certain style of player, and unfortunately unpainted will do a lot more to restrict the customer base.

IMHO, the quality on AT-43 was quite good, but you needed so many units it got extensive really quickly. With a much smaller number of units involved for this game, it seems likely that a prepainted fleet could be reasonably priced to play. That would be my preference, personally. I understand people wanting to paint their own stuff, but I’ve got more than enough on my painting table at the moment. If we can get a good looking table without expanding my backlog, I’d be all for it.

I think we crossed comments, Leo

The only thing I’d like to add is that please remember that those who don’t enjoy painting so much have been under direct, vocal, and seriously unpleasant assault from the “MUST PAINT TO PLAY!!” crowd for years. We’ve been told we shouldn’t play, didn’t care about the game, were ruining gaming, had no dedication, were lazy because we could find time if we really wanted to, and that if we walked into THEIR store nobody would ever, ever play with us.

It’s unfortunate, but you’re probably catching a little bit of that backlash. Relax The comments made are honestly pretty minor compared to what I’ve been on the receiving end of over the years.

At the end of the day, it’s worth remembering that there is no one “right” answer – there’s a range of personal preferences. Which are, at the end of the day, personal! So don’t feel assaulted if someone holds a different opinion – just recognise that no-one’s forcing you to agree with anyone.

We hear, and we’re working on what we see as the best solution. And as soon as it gets finalised, we’ll let everyone know.

Thank you. To everyone.
now….

let’s get back to the game everyone wants to play!!!!!! Bring on the lead zeppelins

Yes, I know the minis are going plastic (thank god) but noone said the leviathans weren’t built outta lead at some point. PLus I’ve been sitting on that one for a while.

I can see both sides of the painted/unpainted issue. Perhaps use prepainted in the box set(s), with individual ships available unpainted? I enjoy painting minis, but I get that some people just want to jump into the game, and I can even respect that. If Leviathans does well enough, it might be possible to cater to both groups.

@Leo – oh, the huge manatee!
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2k4a7a43d7f8.jpg

Having the box set as painted and separate packs in an interesting idea. It still kind of hurt those who are looking into the pre-painted market. If I wanted to have some extra destroyers, I would have to buy an entire box set.

Business is not my major, but I wonder if the idea is even cost effective for the company.

Oh no, someone with my sense of humor. I think that’s bad…. :>

“The only thing I’d like to add is that please remember that those who don’t enjoy painting so much have been under direct, vocal, and seriously unpleasant assault from the “MUST PAINT TO PLAY!!” crowd for years. We’ve been told we shouldn’t play, didn’t care about the game, were ruining gaming, had no dedication, were lazy because we could find time if we really wanted to, and that if we walked into THEIR store nobody would ever, ever play with us.”

This is very true. I was on the other side of the fence. I played Reaper Warlord and have a fully painted army. I expect my opponent to do the same. I don’t mind if they have a few unfinished figures but definitely not more then half the armies untouched. When Reaper relaxes on the rules on painting requirement, the situation gets much worse. Most of the time, only a few minis got painted while the rest of the armies are purely white metals. In that case, what is the point of me spending so much time painting? I gave up 40K long time ago. Again, the minis can be beatifully done and the pictures shown on GW White Dwarf are nice. In reality, a lot of players simply try to meet the 3 color scheme requiremnt. Some figures are painted so uglyand nauseating that I wish the players would leave them bare white metal instead. A lot of people still enjoy painting but it really depends on whether the miniatures are detailed or attactive enough for them to spend the time and effort to paint. Definitely, one ought not to insist in that all minis should come in bare metal. Some, like those miniatures for Starfleet battles, are so poorly sculptured by today’s standard that any pre-painted toys, like those F-toys from Japan, will out shrine them.

For Leviathans, most people expect the miniatures to be very detailed. However, it also takes a lot of time to paint a highly detailed figure especially at 1/1200 scale. I doubt very much I shall paint more than 1 or 2. On the other hand, if you look at the Bismarck model 1:1000 from Force of Valor, it is pre-painted at an acceptable tabletop standard. You can argue that you can do a much better job but most people do not have the skill to do it. Even if they do, they often do not have the time.

I used armies that I painted myself, commissioned, and pre-painted. Obviously, the feeling is never the same as using your own painted army. On the other hand, you really don’t need to have every army painted by yourself. For fantasy and Sci-fi figures, you can design your own color scheme and pattern. I simply don’t see it that way with Leviathans with a national flag attached. On the other hand, if you don’t like British, you can simply paint their ships as ugly as possible and sissy like and claim that this is a representation of their nations in the alternative timeline.

It will not be cost effective to produce two sets of miniatures, one for pre-painted and one with white metal. However, like Rackham, one can put out some special white metal models for painters.

Been a crazy week between meetings and migraines so haven’t been able to stop in for longer than I like.

As Konteradmiral has pointed out, we’re aware that the painted/pre-painted debate is a hot issues…as can be seen by the numerous comments for and against. No decision has yet been made…but I enjoy this type of solid discussion as it enables us to see the full gamut of arguments from all sides to aid us in a final decision.

Thanks to everyone for their enthusiasm!

I want to go on record as saying that making painted minis an absolute requirement to play is asinine. I understand why Reaper and GW do it: they want to sell paints and brushes in addition to the models. Personally, I don’t give a rat’s ass if the models facing me are painted or not. None of the profits from the paints or brushes are going to me, so why should I?

You are in the minority. I was never able to play Flames of War because of that.

RULE # 1

Paint to Play

I am also sick of looking at gray miniature pieces. BLAH!

It’s not a matter of what 1 person thinks.

It is the game group. And when you have people on forums that claim they’ll throw dice at people who bring an unpainted army.

Turn people off. Less money for the company and a bad reputation.

Reason I never got into Warhammer into Flames of War.

I have more money than I do have time to paint.

I spend a few grand a year on games. So that is just less for them and more for Wizards of the Coast and FFG.

I personally don’t mind a couple of unpainted minis on a whole 70 models army, but when some guys don’t even take the pain to glue the minis on their bases… come on! I do paint before playing, and if I do field unpainted miniatures, it will be one or two, not the whole army.
I do believe it’s about respect of your opponent. If my buddy breaks his back on his painting table to bring painted minis and provide me with a good playing environment, it would not be respectful to field grey minis. To me it says : “I don’t care about the efforts you put in this, I just wanna have the fun”.
To make a rather extreme comparison, it would be like attending a wedding in sport pants and slippers and then saying : “hey, what are you angry about, I was there, wasn’t I?”
Not that it’d be that serious, it’s a question of degree, but it’s still about respect. I believe that if your opponent takes the time and the effort to bring a painted army, it’s only fair that you try your best and spend a minimum of time and effort on it as well.

Miniature gaming is not junk food, you can’t just unbox it and consume it right away.

But again, it’s just my own personal opinion.

***I do believe it’s about respect of your opponent.

> And where is the respect for an opponent who does not have time?

some of us go to school (18 credit hours), have a family, work 20+ hours a week, in a relationship and other life matters.

As you mentioned to me it is:

“I don’t care if your are busy, don’t care about your life. My entire life is consumed with gaming, gaming, gaming. I am more committed to plastic figures than the relationships with life.”

Find it really low comparing gaming to a wedding.

And then you compare gaming to junk food. Of course it is not. How would even compare the 2? Not even a good analogy. And you are not even on a consistent relation.

May I remind you their are different types levels of war gaming, their is not 1 definition that fits war gaming.

What is wrong with wanting to open a box and wanting to play ASAP? This desire does not make war gamers any less of a gamer. Their are multiple reasons for this. Any are legitimate.

Before you (or anyone) goes on the path of “Don’t attack me, I just want my voice to be heard”

There has not been on attack in any of my posts nor this one.

The camp for unpainted miniatures have stated their opinions and counter opinions. This is true for the camp the desires prepainted miniatures.

One can post their thoughts countering another poster without it being an attack. You wished for your thoughts to be heard, and it has, So does the prepainted miniatures camp.

I won’t take this as an attack, it’s just a debate and obviously we don’t agree, which is a good thing, this way the debate can progress. We do agree on one point though, I also favors prepaint (as I stated in a previous post), for the reasons I’m going to expose.

Now,
***Find it really low comparing gaming to a wedding.
>As I said, it is kind of an extreme comparison. It was just to make my point about respect.

***“I don’t care if your are busy, don’t care about your life. My entire life is consumed with gaming, gaming, gaming. I am more committed to plastic figures than the relationships with life.”
>I am busy too, I have a life, a job, ongoing studies, friends and relations, I go out, attend concerts, go to the gym, etc, like I guess, all of us here. Still I paint miniatures.
I know painting takes a lot of time, but I don’t mind, cuz I like it, probably more than gaming itself. I don’t really like having to paint minis I don’t like to play, and where some people would decide to field unpainted miniatures, I choose to field other minis I like more. It’s a choice, and I don’t expect everybody to make the same.

***What is wrong with wanting to open a box and wanting to play ASAP? This desire does not make war gamers any less of a gamer. Their are multiple reasons for this. Any are legitimate.
>Nothing’s wrong with that, and this is exactly why I favor prepaint miniatures. Painters like me will still redo the paintjob, but everyone would enjoy the game as soon as the box is opened. In other words, it would -if not skip, at least soften the debate.

This is true, there are different levels of wargaming, but the question is where does the game stand. With unpainted miniature, you target an audience more attracted to the hobby, whereas with prepaint, I believe your target audience will be more of a gamer audience. There is nothing wrong with the two of them, and a lot of people are actually part of both.

as for junk food, well, it may be a bit off I confess, but I’ve seen so many players compulsively buy stacks of miniatures to let them barely glued together, unpainted, lying in a box under the bed. I feel they deserve better than being considered as toys. But then again, maybe it’s my own problem.
And I don’t even wanna give into the “if you don’t paint it, why don’t you use tokens with labels on it it would be cheaper”, cuz it’s just pointless, if we’re having this argument, it obviously means we both like miniatures.

As you said, no attacks, just a discussion.

After my first game (and crushing defeat, but oh boy, I had an excellent time!), I have anothr batch of questions :

1/ Will the basic box set provide lots of punch out tiles to customize ships? I think you said so,I just can’t find back where. I must say, I’m really looking forward for this!

2/ Will the ship files be bigger than those from the PDF printout?

2/ Regarding minis, well, I think the decision to have them prepainted or not should match the majority of the customers’ preference, so that Levs makes the greatest possible market hit. My only question is, will it be possible to buy more French or English ships without buying another basic set?

In the mist of the heated debate between pre-painted and white metal minis, one very important issue that everyone forgets is the COST. If the price of a well pre-painted is same as the white metal, then why would you like to choose later? Unfortunately, this is NOT going to happen.
Pre-painted can be done in high quality. Some of the pre-painted Japanese small scale 1/144 toys are so well made and higher detailed with such small parts that a professional painter could not have done it much better. Unfortunately, it does come with a price.
As mentioned before, I would be happen if Leviathan minis can be pre-painted as the Bismarck from Force of Valor. However, if you are going at 8 ships in the starter set with an average price of $15 (including profits), then that is $120 at lease, not including other game components. When you add the rest, you are going a minimum of $150 at least. At that price, you are simply aiming at a different population, mainly of the collectors rather than gamers.
The reason why Navis/Neptun do so well is because of the historicial influence and a sense of national pride. You don’t have that in Leviathans.
Rackham has attempted in mass production of pre-painted miniature. It was very close to failure and has been very very LUCKY to survive for two reasons. One, despite the economy downturn, it manages to find a buyer to continue as Rackham Entertainment. Two, the licensure cancellation with FFG leading to two massive clearance sale that people finally afford to pick up the games. $10 for either the Confrontation or AT-43 starter set is more than a steal. Unfortunately, this is very bad for the retailers.
The last thing that no one wants is to have a poor quality pre-painted minis like those from Wizkids or even like those of War at Sea from Avalon Hills.
There is no good answer. If the company decides on pre-painted, may be well go for a collector quality piece for a high price and limit the number of ships in the starter set by half or more. Otherwise, go for white bare metal. No point of trying to lower the quality to suit both sides and end up dissatifying everyone.

COuple of points to address:

1) It’s certainly an intention to make minis available outside the intro box. The exact format is not set in stone yet, however I believe Randall will let me say “there will NOT be any Random Boosters”.

2) White metal minis hasn’t ever been an option, basically for cost & weight. Prepainted or bare, they’ll be high-impact plastic. Given the size of the battleships, metal would make the minis dangerous in hand-to-hand combat – a characteristic I’m happy to leave to Catalyst’s Battletech core rule books

3) As mentioned a number of times before, this isn’t a forced WYSIWIG game. It’s a game, and we’ll be happy if people play it; we’re not putting any requirements on painting or even use of minis on players. Of course, I’ll want to play with minis, but I’ll certainly be kitbashing my own variants & customs – it’s unlikely for example we’ll release a whole boxed set around the Ottoman Empire’s sky forces (not quite in the ‘both of them’ category, but not far off), for example, so there’s room for people to exercise their creativity and ingenuity – or to use counters like those from the Lieutenant’s Manual in their stead. And so on. And then there’s the [i]Valiant[/i] class, he says archly …

As the individual to start this derailing of the thread, may I offer a suggestion? Why not apply a poll to this forum, CGL website etc. that justifies a painted/prepainted preference. This would help assuming prices are not a factor. If it’s applied though, I would not suggest an ‘indifferent’ option, just one or the other. This could illustrate what is more popular to the gaming community as a whole.

And, if I may clarify my own stance…..(again, sorry to be the broken record…broken record)…
I find painting to be an announcement of individuality and pride. I paint minis to say…”I painted that” (no matter how much better my 2 year old could do.) and to be different than all the ‘factory schemes.’ I do not consider it rude, etc. if my opponent shows up with a bare army (no primer), but I kind of agree that they need to be at least assembled, that makes it easier on me to identify is all.

On a related note: thank you for avoiding the ‘random booster’ idea.

Sorry, I didn’t realize that white metal is not an option. Plastic will do as long as it is detailed. Regarding to the poll, one has to be careful not to accept sampling bias. Rackham’s poll on its pre-painted minis is a very good example. When the poll was initially release, it was overwhelmingly one side to non-painted at a ration of 3:1. After 3 months, especially when other gamers realized that there would likely be a pre-painted army, they came and cast their vote. In the end, those for the pre-painted outnumbered those for white metal 3:1, the other way around. Many companies would end the poll at two weeks and thought that most players would want non-painted figures which is wrong. The main issue is that only the players who are interested in the game responded to the poll initially and most of them were painted. It was not a true representation of the general public. A poll at this time will be too late unless this company wants to postprone the release.

Quick question here: the two map pages are off-center, how should we correct this?

Wulfen, we’re in the process of correcting the PDF and will have an update posted in the near future.

Thanks Randall!

I second Leo: thank you for not having random boosters. I play D&D, and I flatly refuse to buy any of WotC’s minis because I have no idea what I’m getting.

I thought Wizards stoped with the random boosters?

Hey all…I’m digging through endless emails still in my backlog and finding what appears to be some outstanding questions in this thread I’ve not yet answered.

Please, if there are any questions posted that I’ve not yet answered for people, please re-post so I can quickly and easily get those answered.

Thanks!

number 100

woooooooooooooooooo!

I work in a game store, and I can tell you that the current D&D miniatures packages have one large figure visible, and several random regular minis that are not visible. So, WotC has sort of half-assed it: you know what the big one is that you’re buying, but not the smaller ones. IMO, that’s still unacceptable. ALL miniatures in a package should be clearly visible.

We’re also still getting new boosters for the WotC Star Wars minis that are completely random, with no visible figures at all. I want to know what I’m buying, damnit!

On an unrelated note, does anyone else find it odd that leviathans only have turrets mounted on the dorsal part of the ship? They’re completely vulnerable to an enemy rising from below.

no need to worry, just pack less powder in the cannons .
Also, it could be a sort of chivalry of the times. I also believe (and could be wrong) that most modern ships, including submarines, launch all “skirmish type” (meaning not nukes, etc.) weaponry horizontally, not vertically. Could you imagine trying to get a lev to go vertical???? scary thought.

You’re wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_launching_system
I’m actually kind of hoping the Captains’ Manual introduces rules for elevation. Leviathans *are* vulnerable from below, as long as they lack weapons capable of covering a ventral firing arc.

Hence my desire for Bombs <3 Bombs, bombs the musical fruit… The more you drop, the more you can enjoy the fireworks <<;